I saw an internet advertisement for this program last week and it piqued my interest enough to add it to my ever growing library of DVR recordings. Like most Frontline pieces it tended to lean a little to the “left”, but that is a different discussion, for a different day, on a different blog. Nevertheless, I think the piece was mostly well done and raised a number of valid questions, but at the end of the day, as long as there is a “sort by price” filter on ticketing websites, this is all just rhetoric.
Let’s set one thing straight right off the bat, the flying public does not care what a first year co-pilot makes at a regional airline, period. Similarly, they do not care what Wal-Mart employees make or what they receive in way of benefits as long as they can still get their “roll-back” specials on the 20 dollar microwave they covet. Do those pilots deserve to be paid better? Absolutely they do. However, it’s not a matter of what anyone deserves; it’s a matter of what you can negotiate. As long as labor unions are content with allocating the lion’s share of the pool of money dedicated to pay towards the more senior component of their membership, they have no room to complain in my mind. As long as there are pilots willing to work for near poverty wages, there will be unions and companies that are willing to oblige.
The cause of the accident in Buffalo last year was pilot error. There were no maintenance issues with the aircraft and icing was not a factor. The pay rates of the pilots were not a factor. Their schedule from all accounts was not overwhelming and if fatigue was a factor, (we will never know) it was pilot induced due to commuting. I do not believe that Colgan or any other regional airline willfully disregards safety as the producers and several of the interviewees suggest. I believe that Colgan is only culpable in two areas, hiring and training. I think they should have done better due diligence in hiring the Captain who it was reported had numerous check ride failures over his career. Additionally, the actions of the pilots in the incident were the exact opposite of what they should have done in the recovery which is taught in even the most basic of aviation practices.
The industry is not to blame. They created a model that enabled them to move many people to many places for the cheapest price. The transportation industry has always had this problem. People have always wanted to get from point A to point B in the quickest and cheapest mode possible. Walking was replaced with horses, which was then replaced by boats when it was learned that horses couldn’t swim. Horse drawn carriages were replaced by railroads. Airplanes replaced boats and trains for long distance travel. The automobile became the main mode of transportation for people over short distances as it gave them unparalleled freedom and did not tie them down to preset schedules or connections and was cheaper. It then became cheaper to fly than to drive even over short distances. Wealthy people started buying their own airplanes and spending their money with fractional operators instead of flying commercially. The transportation industry continues to evolve. What will the next innovation be that completely renders the commercial aviation industry as we know it obsolete?
What does this have to do with Frontier Airlines you ask? The answer may very well be that the powers that be are sensing that things are changing and they have to position themselves to be one of the carriers that are the catalyst for the evolution instead of one of the ones that inevitably gets left behind. I am cautiously optimistic in my opinion on whether or not this team can pull it off. And as long as I am here for the ride, I hope it works out for the best. Just try not to alienate the employees in the process because they will be the ones that have to execute the vision.
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Hmmmm....Huge change in tone from your previous posts...Did Republic/Frontier Corp Comm threaten you with legal action?
ReplyDeleteI support you and your blog, being a former F9er but please continue to tell it like it is...everyone needs the insight...even recalcitrant managements...
Nice post. Things are always changing in this industry; maybe in all industries. There is some movement away from code sharing and into interline agreements. It may be that the handwriting is on the wall from the Buffalo crash and there will be some crossover liability for Continental. So the legacy carriers will attempt to be more separate from the regionals.
ReplyDelete"Sort by price" will only get more pervasive in the future. We all like the lowest cost. Maybe what we need is some form of Consumers Reports for airlines.
Disappointing post.
ReplyDeleteI think the public does care what a regional FO makes because their lives are in that persons hands. Would you go to a surgeon who only made 18K a year. Pay most certainly was a factor in the 3407 crash. If the FO made a respectable wage they either wouldn't be commuting across the country to live with their parents or could have come in the night before and got a hotel room. Well rested maybe they don't get slow.
I really hope that you were not threatened by Republic/Frontier. As one of the many pilots about to lose their job at LYNX please, Keep it real Keep it real.
ReplyDeleteI hope the blogger has understood the most important point - Republic isn't going away.
ReplyDeleteThe Frontier name could go away, if it is damaged, so you're either part of the problem or part of the solution.
So what exactly are you saying? The blogger is a problem?
ReplyDeleteI was looking forward to reading your new post but was let down, we have many issues at Frontier. Next time keep it real keep it funny and to the point.
ReplyDelete"So what exactly are you saying? The blogger is a problem?"
ReplyDeleteIt ain't rocket science.
Ok, well I guess when I commented on the 'calm before the storm' blog I had no right standing up for you and saying I understood the meaning behind the blog cause this week made absolutely no sense and was not written with the same passion as the rest. And as far as Republic being some catalyst for evolution I'm going to go with bravo sierra for that one unless they back track 5 years and peek over Richard Branson's shoulder at his clip board and decide they want to go under water or into space ha, and even then they would have to get a new certificate and come up with some name that ends in shuttle and possible operate out of the marine terminal at LGA. Wait, unless you're saying they are going to buy Virgin and have another carrier under the RPA so they can once again have no originality and copy what someone else is dong. Unfortunately they have a hard enough time trying to figure out what airline you are calling from when there is a problem so I'm guessing they might not have the knowledge required to vector into space. Well, just kinda lost here I guess, I'm really thinking someone is making you clean this up for the wifi public or maybe you just had an off week but wither way I had more fun writing this response than actually reading the blog. F9 ohio
ReplyDeleteIt's always nice to get a lively discussion going, but rather confusing when all the participants have the same name. Which Anonymous is commenting? Just grab some clever "handle" to keep things straight. JMHO.
ReplyDeleteThere are several posts by "Mariner" posted here as "Anonymous." You can tell by his writing style. He just can't stand to see anything written negative about F9.
ReplyDelete"Additionally, the actions of the pilots in the incident were the exact opposite of what they should have done in the recovery which is taught in even the most basic of aviation practices."
ReplyDeleteI am not sure it is fair to blame both pilots anywhere near equally. In my opinion, the aircraft crashed for three reasons. One, the approaching landing checklist did not remind pilots to check the setting of the Ice Conditions Reference Speeds switch, set very early on in the flight, and ensure that the “bug speeds” set at landing reflected this switch. Two, reminder or no reminder, the pilots failed to account for the icing Ref Speeds switch, despite the fact that they were still concerned about icing (or even if they weren't). Three, the captain pulled back hard on the stick initially, which may have been recoverable, but continued to hold the stick back for the entire remainder of the flight, which obviously was not recoverable. This last action is difficult to explain. My best guess was that the captain was much more concerned about the sharp left and right rolls he was fighting, which obviously were a very serious problem, and may not have given enough thought to pitch. I would like to read an account of what an FO “should have done” in such a situation.
“Flying Cheap” did a commendable job, but there are still a number of significant factors that remain poorly understood by the general public. The previous fatal airline crash by a commercial U.S. airliner was Comair Flight 191 in August 2006, which also killed 49 onboard, in Lexington KY. That plane crashed when it accidentally took off from Runway 26 instead of Runway 22. The crash runway was half as long, and not long enough. The crew were cited for “nonpertinent conversations during taxi”. They were using an outdated runway map. Similar to Colgan, Comair was operating as Delta Connection with Delta paint. But the difference between the two cases is Comair is actually owned by Delta. In fact many “regional airlines” are owned by the majors, not just contracted by the majors. Frontline ignored that fact. Is an operation like Comair significantly better than an operation like Colgan because one is owned by a “major” and one is not? I am not convinced.
Lynx is owned by Frontier but am I correct in assuming that if a Lynx pilot transferred to Frontier he/she would start at the bottom of the Frontier seniority list? On the one hand, this doesn’t seem fair, on the other hand, it does (no new hire at Lynx would be hired at Frontier, so why should he earn Frontier seniority). I would also like to know if the pilot training relationship between Lynx and Frontier any different than that between Colgan and Continental.
Everyone loves to talk about Sully Sullenberger’s professionalism in the double bird strike Hudson River landing, but if US Airways ever goes bankrupt (as inconceivable as this may seem), Sullenberger would have to start at the bottom of the seniority list and pay scale of his new airline. This makes little sense to me. I believe the flying public would find this astonishing. Much more astonishing than FO Shaw’s first year pay, for example.
In my opinion, seniority should be transferable. You should (generally) not get more years of service at a new airline than what you had at your previous airline, but the years of service at the hiring company should otherwise be negotiable between the two parties, IMO.
Yes, it would take longer for young pilots to move up an airline’s list since the airline could bring in more experienced pilots if they wished. But this is the way it is in most of the working world, AFAIK. Eventually the younger pilots would age and the likelihood that the airline would bring in older pilots would diminish. If a pilot did not like his promotion opportunities at his current airline, he could always move to a different airline and take at least some of his seniority with him/her. The way it is now seems insane.
On a lighter note, would you please get the BS translator fired up again for BB's weekly propaganda. The "Flying Cheap" piece was good, but too somber. Keep up the good work!
ReplyDeleteOn behalf of all of our "family members" at Republic Airways Holdings - including Republic Airlines, Chautauqua Airlines, Shuttle America, Lynx Aviation, Mokulele Airlines, Midwest Airlines, and Frontier Airlines, thank you for choosing to fly with Midwest Airlines, "The Best Care in the Air," and Frontier Airlines, "A Whole Different Animal."
ReplyDeleteAnonymous above you sound like management, and your nose might be a little brown. I still work at Lynx for a while anyway. Believe me we were a whole different animal till BB got a hold of it and sent it down the toilet. So all we can hope for now is that Southwest and United tear out the stuffing out of the animals. Funny how he doesn't want to go head to head in the same markets. I wonder why that is, maybe because he knows it's a losing battle when a Poser gets called out by real airlines.
ReplyDeletePlease turn the BS translator on we need to hear the truth. Oh and can anyone confirm or deny that the advertising firm for Frontier's animals was let go. We keep hearing that they were.
I wonder what the Northwest pilots were paid who couldn't find MSP last year?
ReplyDeleteA Hundred thousand and above depending on seniority and CAPT FO Pay scale at Northwest.
ReplyDeleteNo, they were not.
ReplyDeleteFrom press reports:
ReplyDelete"According to the NTSB, Cheney, 53, was hired in 1985 and has a total of about 20,000 hours flight time —about half in an Airbus A-320, the type of plane he was flying Wednesday.
Cole, 54, was hired in 1997 and his total flight time is about 11,000 hours, including about 5,000 hours on the A-320.
Both pilots said they had never had an accident, incident or violation, the agency said."
"The crew stated they were in a heated discussion over airline policy and they lost situational awareness."
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According to a Colgan NTSB filing, second year Lynx pilots make less than second year Colgan pilots. I doubt this was a decision made by BB.
"I still work at Lynx for a while anyway. Believe me we were a whole different animal till BB got a hold of it and sent it down the toilet."
Does "sent it down the toilet" refer to BB's announcement to end the airline or something else?
To end the airline just like they did Midwest and soon Frontier. It's only a matter of time before 170 and 190's are flying all the frontier routes and the buses will be phased out. They only have about 2 more years on the leases. And yes second year pilots due make less than colgan, but we were promised that our cuts would be given back after we came out of bankruptcy. But according to BB and I Quote because I was their. " Just because you get out of Bankruptcy doesn't me you get your pay cut back. "
ReplyDeleteAnother great quote from the blessed reverend was "We Don't care what the cost of oil goes up too. Again I was their, and the entire room looked at each other like is this fool for real. Look around the net you can find the podcast they are out there. That was only the start of putting Lynx into the toilet.
Or how about this, we were no longer supposed to wait for connections. I know of one occasion that they wanted us to push we left 14 passengers just so we could shut the door and keep our performance numbers up. This wasn't only at lynx but throughout the frontier system. I also know it's only going to get worse. This isn't your hometown airline anymore.
Just makes me wonder what would have happened if Southwest would have bought us. Sure they would have ended the brand but a whole lot more people would have kept their jobs. Not this republic shit from BB kind of like a cancer eating it's way throughout your body.
"We Don't care what the cost of oil goes up too."
ReplyDeleteThat makes no sense, taken out of context. If BB said it, there must have been a reason in context.
According to Republic, most of the Airbus leases expire between 2013-2017, so they have at least three more years (3 are on longer leases).
It would make no sense for Bedford to replace Frontier's aircraft with smaller E190s, and Embraer doesn't have anything bigger. He told industry analysts in December that Republic would refleet the Airbuses either with new Airbuses, Boeing 737-700/800s, or Bombardier CS300s, and that the announcement would come this quarter. But maybe you are right. Maybe Bedford lied.
"Or how about this, we were no longer supposed to wait for connections."
This comment has been echoed by people familiar with Midwest. It might be a topic worthy of discussion, I know little about it.
It doesn't make sense for them to get rid of the most fuel efficient airplane in the sky today. Especially when oil is so up and down. Why do you think Lynx was so successful in helping Frontier remain afloat during bankruptcy especially when oil skyrocketed.
ReplyDeleteWhy do you think Horizon is getting rid of all their jets and going to an all Q Fleet.
As for the context of "We don't care what the cost of oil goes up too" It was in response to someone specifically asking why not keep a plane that is more fuel efficient than jets, especially on the routes that Lynx flew. As I said before, I was their when he said it, along with over a hundred people who were floored when he said it. We all kind of looked at each other in disbelief.
As for the Airbuses, C series, 737's, lets look at it this way. Why would he want to pay frontier pilots their current wages when he can put a 170 or 190 on their route and pay the crew a frontier capt wage. That's how it happened at Midwest.
What I can't figure out is this. Lynx crews are the lowest paid crews in the WORLD not the US, the WORLD. The plane is 30% more efficient has less carbon emissions is know as the green machine. The planes performance is extremely well suited for all the routes it's currently on especially the mountain routes. Now he just wants to throw it all awsy because it's a turboprop.
Just so he can replace it with a jet, crews that are more expensive, uses more fuel, and whose performance numbers will hurt it in the summer in the mountains. What this means is lots of people will be left behind due to weight restriction especially in Jackson hole and Aspen. To top it off the plane is not even certified for Aspen yet. That is the only reason that Lynx will be around till September.
From the start it was known that he hated truboprops all kinds.
A few weeks have gone by since we were shamefully delivered the news by Wayne Heller that Lynx Aviation would be dismantled. I'm sure like everyone else the last couple weeks have been a time of many emotions usually returning to outright anger over what has transpired. As we witness the unwelcome end of Lynx Aviation as an airline, I believe there are some points worth mentioning. Undoubtedly the natural inclination after reading this would be curiosity as to the author. It doesn't really matter.
ReplyDeleteThe story of Lynx Aviation has been written all but the last few pages of the last chapter. Unfortunately it will be known by those who worked here and by those with knowledge of the circumstances, as a tragedy. Even after the fate of our airline had been sealed unbeknownst to us, we were the topic of a Denver Post article that was one of the most complimentary articles ever written about an airline. In a time of unprecedented fuel price volatility, our aircraft was the most fuel-efficient in the sky. With public perception of the airlines at an all time low, we delivered a service to our passengers that rivaled any airline's. After reading that article most of us would have thought that the future of Lynx Aviation was not only bright but also assured. In that context it's no surprise that we were blindsided by the news that our operation would be disposed of. Point number one: after three years of superior performance we were owed a significant explanation of why Lynx was not a viable operation that included supporting evidence for closing Lynx. Needless to say a three-sentence press release in addition to a "webcast" devoid of any financial numbers, details, specifics regarding efforts for Lynx's future was infuriating.
Perhaps what bothers me most about the circumstances is what Brian Bedford's decision has seemingly stolen from many of us. The lost income, the temporary loss of career progression are both insignificant in comparison to what he seems to have successfully taken: the loss of passion for a career in which we are exceedingly skilled. I can't count how many times this week I've heard "I might just leave aviation." I could hardly blame anyone for considering a different career path after the experience of two months under his "leadership." Point number two: Don't let "Frank Lorenzo-in-training" decide your career. If this is what you want to do for a living, don't let an airline executive make your plans. Fly planes, live where you want to live, earn money, repeat.
Lastly I say this. Someone told me a story once about a pilot sitting in a terminal waiting for a flight. Another pilot came up to him clearly in a hurry and asked if there was any chance he had a couple quarters. His phone was dead and he needed to make a call. The pilot reached in his pocket and pulled out all of his change and said "take it, if we don't take care of each other nobody else will." The guy needing the quarters sat on the Southwest hiring board.... Point number three: Republic pilots make a convenient target for our rage, and if you've witnessed the same behavior this last month from some embarrassing examples as I have it's hard not to think that their pilot group consists of anything but those. However, any adult knows you can't stereotype. Unfortunately this anger plays into Bedford's management strategy of divide-and-concur, leaving all of us bickering like children while Bedford reaps the benefit of a divided pilot group playing us off of each other. We're better than flipping each other off as we taxi by. Make no mistake the individuals responsible for the death of Midwest, Lynx and soon Frontier, are Brian Bedford and Wayne Heller, not the employees who signed up to earn a living flying airplanes.
No wonder Frontier went into bankruptcy, their employee groups are very unproductive. Southwest's employee groups are much more productive. No Frontier employee would have been hired by WN if they won the auction. F9's wouldn't have been able to handle the responsibilities of a real airline.
ReplyDeleteanonymous above you sound like management who is a pencil pusher and wouldn't know the meaning or real work if came out and bit him in the ass. All the work groups at frontier were great until republic got a hold of them.
ReplyDeleteBravo.
DeleteAnd that post was productive, how?
ReplyDeleteDoes anyone know why rjet bought F9? It wasn't the planes, people, gates, advertising, routes, goodwill, technology, experience, professional relationships... they had to work hard to screw it up this bad, this quick.
ReplyDeleteLooks like the Denver post has hit it right on.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.denverpost.com/business/ci_14438940
What happened? Where did this blog go? It was great while it lasted. Pressure from the company I assume, bummer!
ReplyDeleteLooks very much like pressure from the co....I understand they have a rep for such things...Also, the guy/gal writing this could have been let go in all this reorg and no longer has an inside view....
ReplyDeleteAll I can say is please continue posting, the aviation community needs this perspective...
Spirit and frontier airlines refund policy announced a $6.6 billion merger that would create the fifth-largest airline in the United States. And the most-complained about: Passengers may like their low fares, but they do not like flying Spirit or Frontier. They had the industry's worst customer satisfaction ratings, according to the American Customer Satisfaction Index .
ReplyDelete